Well, if Chris has broken out the cartoons already for Friday afternoon, I guess I'll follow up with some TV. I don't think I've ever seen an episode of E.R. in its entirety (I actually didn't realize it was still on TV), but this clip—in which one character tries to comfort another with shallow postmodern platitudes about God—is pretty amazing. Give it about 30 seconds to get good:
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My follow up question is what does Christianity have to offer that isn't shallow? Are you going to tell this man that Jesus died for him and he is forgiven already? He would be pissed off at this too because this allows people to do whatever they want and still be forgiven.
This character expresses to me that he wants to be punished. He is angry at himself for what he has done and his view of justice requires him to be punished. You are going to have to get past this belief before you can express any kind of concept of forgiveness. This is what the "shallow" character was trying to do.
Where this guy is now, would require nothing short of God himself appearing to him and telling him that he is forgiven. And even that might not work.
"I think it's up to each one of us to interpret what God wants" is a "shallow postmodern platitudes about God". It is niether a question nor a place to start, but a statement of her beliefs and, therefore a place to conclude.
"My follow up question is what does Christianity have to offer that isn't shallow?" The Truth, although whether or not Christianity has anything to offer that isn't shallow has no bearing on whether the girl in the clip offered "shallow postmodern platitudes". We may evaluate a statement and conclude that it is false without necessarily knowing what is true.
"Are you going to tell this man that Jesus died for him and he is forgiven already?" Nope.
"He would be pissed off at this too because this allows people to do whatever they want and still be forgiven." People who are forgiven do not continue to want the same things.
If the dying man wanted to be punished, he could have easily accepted her answer and responded, "okay, God wants to punish me." Since he did not, I have to accept his expressed fear is genuine.
Rather, he seems certain that he deserves punishment and is deeply afraid of it. Therefore, her answer offers no hope. On the other hand, God's answer is a real solution for the dying man. His "view of justice" is the same as God's. I'd say this shows something like a miracle may have already occurred and perhaps no further miracles like "God himself appearing to him" will be required.
The girl's shallow relativism says, "you're only as guilty as you want to be". God says, "you are guilty, but my son took your punishment. Trust in his sacrifice and receive forgiveness."
What's the difference? Both approaches require you to believe that you are either guilty or not guilty. They are both beliefs. If one is shallow, they both are shallow. What she says is true in either case. If I want to be guilty I don't accept Jesus' sacrifice. If he wants to be guilty then no statement of belief or reason would change that. That's not shallow, its simply a statement of fact. We all choose to continue to be guilty.
If the man fears punishment is irrelevant to his particular belief that all wrongs need to be punished. His fear is based on the idea that there is no forgiveness. I really didn't see all that much fear. Rather I saw a lot of anger directed toward someone who was trying to hang in there with him. I didn't see any evidence that he was open to any kind of forgiveness.
"The Truth, although whether or not Christianity has anything to offer that isn't shallow has no bearing on whether the girl in the clip offered "shallow postmodern platitudes". We may evaluate a statement and conclude that it is false without necessarily knowing what is true."
This is high school debate stuff. In this context it does have a bearing because the direct implication is that Christianity is not shallow. I think we can figure that out pretty easily.
I never really saw a statement in regards to how he could relieve his guilt from the "shallow" counselor. I simply saw her exploring what he believed to be true. Saying that your only as guilty as you want to be is not a statement of cure. Its simply another way at getting him to take responsibility for what he was choosing to believe.
Guilt isn't some poison gas you breath in while walking around. Its based in assumptions about life and values. And until one understands the underlying belief system, you can't really talk about solutions. And until one takes responsibility for their own choices, you can't talk about solutions.
"This is high school debate stuff." Is that good or bad? Or is it "kind of a marker"?
In this context it does have a bearing because the direct implication is that Christianity is not shallow." If Christianity were false or shallow, that would offer no evidence supporting postmodernism or relativism. "I think we can figure that out pretty easily."
The girl did ask one question, which along with her assertions reveal she had no idea what the guy was going through. But "You couldn't have known", "I think...", "Maybe your guilt... is your reason for living. Maybe you need...", "I think it's up to each one of us to interpret what God wants", "I understand", "I hear that you're frustrated but you need...", "I know..." are all diametrically opposed to "exploring". She's trying to tell him she has the answer, and the answer is his guilt isn't real.
"Guilt isn't some poison gas you breath in while walking around. Its based in assumptions about life and values." In my experience and observation, guilt is felt more than thought or believed and never based on "assumptions".
"And until one understands the underlying belief system, you can't really talk about solutions." Would you solve beliefs? I suppose some beliefs (like relativism) need solutions. But guilt is real whether or not we believe in it and most certainly needs a solution.
"And until one takes responsibility for their own choices, you can't talk about solutions." Precisely. This is the whole point. You must confess to be forgiven.
Thanks for pointing to this.
My response comes from the Book of Psalms- a very practical, down to earth book lacking heavy mysticism (if the miracles of God can be relegated to such a definition!)
PSALM 130:1-3
3 "If thou, Lord, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?"
Then, we pause and ponder the answer as well as the question and the questioner.
Who among mortal men was more 'forgiven' than King David? A man who had more grievous error to be covered in the forgiving waters of Godly love than David? A man who had not only plotted to kill a man, but had used his power and position to quell any earthly investigation and just to steal his wife: I am referring to Uriah of course.
We know he was forgiven, his life spared and as ultimate proof of forgiveness, God gave him Solomon. Solomon exceeds to this day, all standards of earthly wisdom and personal WEALTH!
In the next verse of Psalms 130, verse 4 please read:
" But, there is forgiveness with thee that thou mayest be feared."
(Fear has a greater meaning when you deal with Supreme Good!)
Yes, there was a sin, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, for which there was no forgiveness. Men do NOT receive and abide with and have the in-dwelling of this divine aid as was possible in the old testament and the first century Church of Christ, but we still have miracles.
In this age, the grace of God and the Hand of His Trinity guides us to secrets of the Universe that step forth from the shadows of life as KNOWLEDGE! There is NOTHING 'shallow' CARDW about the Power of God, that allows humanity to be relevant, through faith in Jesus Christ, relevant IN EVERY ASPECT OF HUMAN LIFE AND ADVENTURE!!!
What do I mean?
I am a scientist, but a friend told me a day ago that his mother was illl. He asked," I know you have faith, will YOU PRAY FOR HER?"
We had a fund raiser for new test equipment in the lab. I had nothing to do with this activity. The chairman of the fundraiser pulled me aside and asked," we could sure use your prayers in this effort. How about it..."
One of our students was evidently kidnapped a few years back,...you know what they asked me to do now, don't you??!
God has done something for me and all who believe in Him. He has made me RELEVANT to any and all things under His power.
How sweet it is to be Loved by Him....!
I am listening,...
_____________
-joshMshep
www.myspace.com/joshmshep
No, this man isn't too proud to accept forgiveness. This man knows exactly what he deserves... and were it a real man, how quickly God would show him His mercy. As I'm often reminded, God wishes all men redeemed even more than the most devoted evangelist. And He will most certainly redeem those whom He's chosen :)