Discussing
Quiet Company and finding comfort in spiritual doubt

I don't know Andre, but I like him.  Andre, you seem to be an sincere man and I appreciate that.  There are many who are in that place where you were in your 11-15 phase of life for the entirety of their lives. There is a need to prove ourselves to Jesus, to say the right prayer, to serve enough, they are driven by the greatest law. But the truth is that we are saved from all that.  We no longer have to work to prove ourselves good enough.  If you are in Christ all that is left to do is rest in the fact that Jesus has finished it.  He has done all the work.  He is the perfecter and finisher of our faith.  Paul says things like 'You who were saved by believing are also perfected by believing as well'.  You don't have to work at getting all of the law conquered anymore- you are saved (yes even from the greatest commandment). Because Jesus satisfied all the law and we are in Him.  We are clothed in Him, we don't have to try and "find" ourselves or "prove" ourselves because all of humanity's true identity is found in that of Christ.  We have been brain washed to think that we as individuals have something to offer.  The only one who has anything to offer anything is the High Priest who has sat down. But thankfully we have been placed IN Him, and He IN us.  We are totally intertwined. 

If you are in the same boat as Andre then I am so happy for you because this is the moment where you get to say "I give up." I know that it seems silly, but the all inclusiveness of that statement  ushers in rest and joy. This cup will never leave you thirsty, this portion will always fill your belly.

"Everything you were taught about God is wrong, there is no heaven waiting for you when you die, we are all on our own, and all we have is each other. And it’s a triumphant, gloriously happy thing – not in spite of that conclusion, but because of it."

I have read similar things from various atheists, agnostics, skeptics, etc., so it clearly means something significant to them. But to me it seems like there's a missing premise in the syllogism or something. There is something I am not grasping which explains why these folks find the statement "No meaning in fact exists, but you can manufacture whatever meaning suits you" to be good news, as opposed to an invitation to despair. Is it that this concept removes any pressure to "get it right"?

I can't shake the suspicion that the hidden premise is illegitimate (meaning that it is grounded on or derived from the exact worldview being denied).

I have found that doubt often happens for me when I expect God to behave in ways I've defined myself or some theologian or church leader has defined for me. Even in the Bible God responds to different people in different ways. Then when God's interactions don't match my expectations I might doubt His presence or His intentions. As CS Lewis said, "God isn't a tame lion, but He is good." Sometimes He responds in unexpected and unorthodox ways...like extended periods of silence. BTW I've heard the some of the album and like it. I like the review too. Maybe these guys are like David somewhere in the cave of Adullam. Someone in the middle of Psalm 13 isn't going to think like someone at the end of it. The story on Muse or Salles isn't over yet.

I've never heard the voice of God.  I have certainly felt His presence move in my life.  Stepping out on faith and do the things that God calls you to do - that you can't do - and then do them, then you'll realize that God is real and sovereign over all creation.

Andre, people become Christians for many reasons. Some for relief from guilt. Others for apologetic reasons, whether historical, scientific or philosophical. Many were born into the faith of their fathers. But being a Christ follower is more than a mental assent, adherence to a biblical set of ethics, or even fan appeal with it’s power of affiliation. Some follow a football team fanatically, painting their faces, painting slogans on their cars on game day. Fortunately, being a Christian is more than all that, it holds the possibility of entering into a supernatural relationship. It is easy to abandon a set of beliefs, a book, or the youthful passions for a sports team. I was raised in the church and rejected it once I left home. I was determined that I would be honest and reject anything that was less than real or authentic. Today, I have a beautiful, intellectually satisfying apologetic for my faith, but more than that, I know the Lord. We were designed to walk in the garden with Him and talk with each other as friends. This is still the plan. American Christianity is in rapid decline in part because we have lacked an experiential dimension to our belief system. 

I appreciate the honesty of the author’s statement, “everyone who told me they heard the voice of God was lying. No one actually hears it. We take signs and metaphors and feelings and find God in them.” Andre, you have been very honest and vulnerable and I will be just as honest. I have to say I hear God’s voice often. So do most of my friends who have experienced the filling of the Holy Spirit. He makes me laugh sometimes, He is a dear friend, providing comfort. At times He will tell me things that I would have no other way of knowing. He has warned me about various future events. There were the nudges, feelings and metaphorical communication I experienced after becoming a disciple in 1971. Of course one is most certainly saved after committing ones life to Christ and many live a Godly, life without ever experiencing His manifest presence. But after two others laid hands on me to receive the fullness of the Holy Spirit and I began to pray in tongues, I began to hear His voice in a clearer fashion. I treasure the word of God more than ever and it is an objective standard to measure all experience by. I am not talking about extra-Biblical revelation, superior faith or holiness. Simply the conversation that two friends might have. That was 40 years ago. In the intervening years I graduated from college, raised a family, own a business, taught Sunday School and led scores to faith in Christ. Praying in the Spirit and hearing the voice of the Lord has been a daily occurrence. Experiencing the miraculous and hearing the Lord’s voice does not guarantee faithfulness either, as Adam and Eve, the Israelites in the wilderness, the apostates in Paul’s day (and our day) demonstrate. 

Here is what Jesus promises and what the first Christians experienced;

“And the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.”...“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.” John 10:4-27

“When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future. He will bring me glory by telling you whatever he receives from me.” John 16:13

“And while Peter was earnestly revolving the vision in his mind and meditating on it, the Spirit said to him, Behold, three men are looking for you!” Acts 10:19

“Then the Spirit said to Philip, Go forward and join yourself to this chariot.” Acts 8:29

My advice Andre would be to say, don’t stop pursuing Him till He reveals Himself to you in a personal way. Be filled with the Holy Spirit, examine the word of God to see what gave those first century believers that dimension of personal experience.

I didn't find room for this in my introduction to Andre's piece, but wanted to be sure to bring John Suk's new book, "Not Sure" (http://bit.ly/w3m064), into the conversation. It's a similar exploration of doubt by the pastor and former editor of The Banner, albeit one that comes to a different sort of conclusion. Particularly pertinent to some of the issues Andre raises, in terms of hearing the voice of God, is the provocatively titled chapter "Faith Is Not a Personal Relationship with Jesus."

Josh Larsen
Think Christian editor

blessed is he who continues to struggle, to wrestle, for he just may find Him in his corner . . . .

born into sin... what a joke and manipulative lie. To demand love and fear from ones on creation... how shameful. I dare you to ask the same of your own children.

It's important to note, though, that boldly declaring God's non-existence and setting up a Vonneget-esque kind of happily nihilistic humanism is a bit different from simply saying "I'm not sure I feel today like God exists" or "the church I grew up in got a lot of things wrong".  The album "We Are All Where We Belong" is not an expression of momentary spiritual queasiness, it's a statement saying that "God is not here and never was but let's find meaning in loving each other".  Those are two entirely different ideas.

Great Josh, I just read a selection of Suks book online, I will order it.  

here's what I mean. God is a person. By that I mean He communicates with us personally, not simply through the general written word available to all or through the revelation of nature. He says, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” Or, “the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” or “Then the Spirit said to Philip, Go forward and join yourself to this chariot.” “Thus says the Holy Spirit: The Jews at Jerusalem shall bind like this the man who owns this belt, and they shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles” or, “the Holy Spirit tells me in city after city that jail and suffering lie ahead.” None of these statements could be found in the written word, they had to be spoken and arise from friendship with God. “No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.”

When Pilate who held the power of life and death demanded an answer from Jesus, “What is truth?” the halls rang in silence. Jesus will not be forced to speak by our threats. When asked by John’s disciples whether he was the messiah, He refused to give a direct answer. Job demanded God speak to him yet He was met by silence day after day as he sat in his ash heap itching his boils. Emotional black mail, “give me an answer or I will stab myself with this knife” as Muse says, has never worked. “You shall not put the Lord your God to the test”. Had the singer followed through on his threat, as he clearly didn’t, he simply would have foolishly faced God directly. To hear God’s voice in this world, one must have their senses attuned. Hearing the voice of the Lord first demands repentance and submission. It is the servant that hears the voice of the master “Speak Lord, for your servant heareth”. It is the Sheep that hear his voice. Jesus puts it this way, “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.”

In Christ’s absence, He speaks to us by His Holy Spirit. Hence the emphasis on the in-filling or Baptism of the Spirit. “When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future.” The author of Hebrews talks about those who “who because of practice have their senses trained”. As young Samuel discovered, hearing God requires a servant’s heart, activated senses and practice.

After the Resurrection and the day of Pentecost, you never read of a disciple grappling with doubt. They may grapple with sin, deception, human appetites, persecution, but rarely doubt. Pre-Christians and those not filled with the Spirit in the Gospels may have grappled with, “what if God doesn’t heal my child or is Jesus really the messiah?”, but you never read of the first century Christians questioning the existence of God. That is a 20th and 21st century phenonomenon, in part because we have reduced Christianity to a set of precepts, mental assent, a philosophy devoid of supernatural experience. Is it possible to be a Christian and doubt God exists? No wonder we don’t hear the voice of God.

Perhaps you misunderstood...the "fear of God" is not OF-God...Fear is a lie.  Unfortunately too many generations of people have been misled with the "hell, fire and brimstone" messages that certainly manipulate their congregations into false decisions of faith.  Decisions of Fear are not decisions of Faith.

Decisions of faith (whether to God, or to parent) are founded in a belief that God/parent has my best interests in mind...that God/parent has a much different perspective than I and that God/parent knows of a more fulfilling route from birth to death -- and beyond.

Fortunately, God's "law" and Jesus' strong recommendations are for my good, not for my demise.

Our fundamental problem with the topic of "sin" comes from the fear of failure, a lie from God's enemy himself.

Imagine for a second that God's law (or Jesus' strong recommendation) was to fill an 8-ounce glass with water.  [Note: We can opt out of the recommendation all together and forgo fellowship with our creator include His best life for us --or-- we can try to fill the glass.]  Also imagine you were simply unable to acquire the 8-ounces of water God's law required.  The best you could do was 5 ounces.  At this point, we have a choice of how to view the deficit of 3 ounces.  We can (a) get pissed that the law was too strict, too difficult, too impossible -- blaming the creator of the law for it's unfairness and selfishly focus on what this predicament may mean about ourselves --or-- (b) accept that we are unable to meet the requirement, but ask for help from Jesus who can supply the deficit ounces every time, gratefully accepting (by FAITH) the grace of God through Jesus.

Too often our tendency is to choose "a" and over time we build up a history of not meeting the requirement, not measuring up, and we eventually write it all off.

Food for thought: if we are not born into sin, why are infants already selfish? Why do things naturally fall-apart instead of get stronger? Why does chaos ensue without a moral compass?  A moral compass based on the principles of scripture.

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16

So, instead of talking to Andre, have any of you felt the same things? And, more importantly, still feel them?

I'm a Christian, for sure, but I don't really relate to what many people here are saying. I've never left that tension behind, or a permanent resolution to the doubt. Some mornings I wake up and still wonder if it's all a crock - and decide to trust and do one more day. Like Andre, I got exhausted of worrying (thought I make no presumption that we feel/felt the same thing - from what he posted we are at two different places and ages in life). After spending a decade stressed out about all of this stuff in a very high pressure environment I've decided to stop worrying about it (well, obviously it was more complex than that...). I believe in Jesus, but I've also become comfortable with the possibility of it not being real. Don't get me wrong, I'm committed - I even have a hefty sum of student loans attacked to a theology degree - but I'm comfortable with the ambiguity. I think God is comfortable with it too.

Much of the time I think I do feel God (I'm not sure I've really heard words though - maybe, but I don't know), and there are also times when I wonder if I've ever really heard him at all. I can relate to Andre when he speaks of having a hard time believing the ways that people around him experience God. Most of the experiences I hear from people I've never had, and it's genuinely hard to relate. Like when people ask me if I believe in "tongues", I can't only say, "psh, I don't know... I've seen people make noises, and they say it's something legitimate, but... that's all I can say." I look at the Hebrew Bible and see periods of hundreds of years where they heard nothing, and I find comfort. I read Lamentations, which ends without resolution, and I find comfort.

For a while I was very cynical about everything, but I've moved past the cynicism, mostly. I still have a very healthy dose of skepticism, but that's a very different attitude. At this point (which is certainly not a fixed point - I'm sure to move on) I'm comfortable not understanding everything.

I don't know if I know the "truth", but I trust God. I think it fits the Jewish idea of "truth" better anyway (Greek/western idea of truth is perfect, disembodied knowledge to which one assents; Jewish truth is properly defined as "trustworthy" - hence all of the stories it's much more "mystical" than western thought).

I hold that trust with an open hand though. That's one of the ways I've moved past anxiety about getting it right. It's not my job to make God real; if he's real, that's his job. And so far, trust has continued to hold, in very subtle ways. Nevertheless, the intellectually honest part of me has to keep the hand open - never again will I hold faith with a white knuckled grip, and surprisingly, that seems beautiful to me.

Doubt has always been present. I seriously doubt that Thomas never doubted again (see what I did there). And for sure doubt in the general existence of God wasn't a big issue hundreds of years ago, because it was a "given." Most things had no explanation - mysticism was the only explanation for nearly everything. And doubt of one's own God's existence probably wasn't a big issue in Christendom either, since most pheasant never traveled further than ten miles from their home - they probably weren't even familiar with other religions. I also don't think it's simply a 20 and 21st century phenomenon either - I think it was a gradual shift since the birth of the enlightenment. But even then, it's present through out all of history.

Throughout church history a great number of important people struggled with it. Take just St. Augustine for example, as one writer says it, "The Confessions are dramatic, because even though they have a happy ending, certainty is still kept trembling by the running shock-waves of doubt."

Great album.  Great review.  Re Comments:  I wish I knew what any of you were talking about.

If you'd like to hear the album for yourself, you can check it out right here: http://quietcompany.bandcamp.c... 
Thank you for sharing this review with your readers. I'll make sure Taylor sees it so he can come over here and talk with you about it.
Thanks,
Paul / Quiet Company

Thanks Paul. Taylor's thoughts would be most welcome. Josh Larsen, TC editor

The Devil is real and wants humans to spend time contemplating why God may not exist. The best way to know that God is, is to spend time in his word. Not hearing God's audible voice and believing = faith.

I have "heard" God's voice a time or two.  I have seen signs and wonders.

 You think if this happens that you won't be so susceptible to doubt.  But it's not true.  I believe doubt is part of the human condition.  We doubt when bad things happen.  We doubt when things don't go our way.  We doubt when others confront our faith and we can't find the right response.  And, yes, we doubt when we are listening for God's voice and get nothing but silence.
 I think, like one of the others who posted, that I have come to accept that what I believe about God, how I relate to Jesus, will always be in a state of flux.  I think I must listen to this music.  I have a feeling it will feel familiar to my soul.

Paul, I’m not sure about your definition of faith. Read the great faith chapter in Hebrews 11. Abraham was called the “Father of Faith”. Yes, He left UR and traveled to Canaan, but God spoke to him personally and told him to go. Plus God spoke to him face to face and he and Sarah spoke to and entertained angels several times. Hebrews says “By faith, when he was CALLED, obeyed God”. “By faith, Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, prepared an ark”. Gideon, the great man of faith, was met by an angel face to face who called him “Oh Valiant Warrior”. The angel hung around for a couple hours while Gideon killed and barbecued a steer for him. “By faith, Moses...” who saw God face to face many times in his life, saw the pillar of fire every day for 40 years, lived on “Angel Food” (manna). Not hearing the voice of God and believing does not equal faith. Each one of the 16 examples of faith cited in this faith chapter knew God, explicitly heard the voice of God, some even saw God or angels and obeyed. Faith = obediance, not belief. Satan believes, in fact his theology is pretty astute in that he knew long before Augustine than God was triune, or that Jesus was the Christ, God in the flesh, or that eating of the tree of knowledge would bring about spiritual death for the human race. However he is disobedient, or faithless. Hearing God’s voice is something to be desired and a promise to all believers according to Jesus, not somehow an impairment to our faith. But I agree with you Paul, doubt is not something to be proud of or to be comfortable with.

Hey everyone, 
I'm Taylor, I wrote this record.  Just wanted to drop by and say thanks for posting Andre's review and taking the time to listen and/or discuss the record.  It was always my hope that this record, while certainly being challenging, wouldn't be completely alienating to believers and that they would, hopefully, recognize themselves in much of it.   Many of your comments convince me that my hopes were not ridiculous, which has been lovely.
Thanks,Taylor

I certainly don't know many people who are proud of it. Though I tend to think that people who say they never doubt aren't thinking hard enough about it. Obviously I could be wrong, but that's just outside my experience to never doubt.

Jesus did not choose John. his favourite, who never doubted, to be his "Rock" and lead his "Flock". He chose Peter who had so much doubt at the arrest and crucifixion, he denied he even knew Jesus three times. There is much to learned from doubt, and much strength to be gained from it.

Peter could never relate to a flock of doubting followers from a high pedestal of certainty. He needed the experience of doubt and reconciliation before he could become the humble keystone on which Christ could build his church. Doubt is an integral part of the Christian experience.  

I have a friend in Texas whom I haven’t seen in years. Yet we e-mail back and forth frequently. It would never occur to me to doubt her existence. In a similar way, I don’t recall doubting the existence of God after I gave my life to Him. I speak to Him frequently, He speaks to me frequently. I have an uncle who is an atheist and he just doesn’t understand my mother. He thinks her “beliefs” are quaint and is suprised at her tenacity at believing in God. This amuses me because I happen to know, my Mother doesn’t have beliefs about God, she has a relationship with Jesus. It is easy to change, lose or doubt beliefs. It is near impossible to doubt the existence of someone who speaks to you and obviously is caring for you. When I say “speaks to you”, I am not being metaphorical. The larger temptation is not doubting, the larger temptation is to not desire a relationship, or to be disobedient. Romans 1 says that we all are born with an inner knowledge of God...we are pre-wired. Those who are not thankful to God, who refuse to honor Him, wind up worshipping the creation or their own self will. Those that seek to know Him will find Him. Those that are comfortable with a theology or set of beliefs, who are suspicious of a so-called relationship, will always remain distant. His SHEEP (not goats) know His voice and will follow. “Speak Lord for thy SERVANT heareth”. The people of Israel did not want to hear the voice of God and were content with following Yaweh at a distance, and that is certainly an option. There’s nothing wrong with that, and a good part of the church is content to live that way, but life can be so much richer. Milton’s Lucifer would rather reign in hell than serve in heaven and that desire to live as an independent agent in a universe devoid of God seems to give energy to this album. These folks celebrate with great skill and pathos the absence of God.

“…everyone who told me they heard the voice of God was lying. No one actually hears it. We take signs and metaphors and feelings and find God in them.” This is quite a bold statement. Andre, have you considered that this idea is about as unsustainable as the statement, “I’ve heard the voice of God”?
 
“Everyone?” “No one?” If you want state this as a fact about yourself, that’s fair; but do you really think you can state this as a fact for everyone?
 
You’ve found comfort in drawing such a conclusion, and I don’t want to rob you of that…(well, maybe I do). But it seems like a rickety structure upon which to rest. If it collapses, do you have a “plan B” in mind?

How can you be sure that you *haven’t* heard the voice of God? Does anyone possess an adequate means for judging this beyond all doubt?

I’m willing to bet that you hold some good conviction that was communicated to you by God in some mysterious way. (It's a safe bet because how can anyone prove it one way or the other?)
 
I wonder if what is really being sought here is not so much hearing the voice of God, but gaining some kind of irrefutable evidence of His existence and identity. But life these days indicates, with painful clarity, that God is not in the irrefutable evidence business right now. There is always doubt; there is always a space in which we can deny Him, so that we might choose to love Him.

Hi Dave. I've clearly upset you with this one, and I'm sorry about that. Perhaps it is an unfair statement, but I feel like the idea that God speaks to us is similarly comforting for a great many people, and similarly impossible to validate. When I say "the voice of God," I don't mean feelings, or nudges in a certain direction, or signs that point to a decision. I mean the creator of all things, speaking to us in words. (This is certainly what Taylor Muse is yearning for throughout this record.) I've had many people tell me they hear God talking to them, and from my perspective, that's like telling me that you can levitate, but only at home when no one's watching. Perhaps "lying" is unfair, but it's a more palatable scenario for me than believing that God speaks to some people and not others, no matter how much those in the latter category want to hear him.

And this is where faith comes in, I think. Some may say that God is speaking to me through his silence, or that God has opened up avenues for me without using words. This may be true, or it may be coincidental, and we are assigning it meaning. Those with faith in God will believe that this is him speaking, in his way. I find myself on the other side of that equation more often than not, and wondering why an all-powerful deity wouldn't just make himself known. I've wrestled with it for years, and some of our mutual favorite musical philosophers (Terry Taylor, Gene Eugene) have helped. But this is where I am now. God doesn't talk to me, and I don't know why, and I don't know what that means. And because I'm on my own with that question, I have to figure it out the best way I can.

Have you ever heard God talking to you? If not in words, in what way? And if not in words, have you ever wondered why not?

Dave, I agree that doubt is as important a part of this experience as faith is. I'm lacking in the latter quality, which makes it difficult. I bet I hold many convictions that you would see as evidence of God speaking to me. I think you're right when you say I'm looking for evidence of God's existence and identity, and your last sentence is so poetic that it makes God's decision to hide himself from us almost sound understandable. But I don't understand it. Every day around the world, people kill one another over disagreements about the existence and identity of God. It seems to me some irrefutable evidence would go a long way toward ending that problem. I know this is elementary theology, but I still wrestle with it.

I want to understand. I really, truly do. My worry is that it all comes down to faith, to genuine belief in something that eludes proof. That's an extremely difficult proposition for me, which is why I'm fascinated by people who can do it, and still examine their faith objectively. Perhaps one day I'll get there.

Proof is overrated. 

Remember Truth, Love and Hope have no proof either. We know they exist by the change they make in our lives. 
Faith is when you can believe in God despite having doubts.You should find the story of Mother Theresa's struggle with doubt - truly inspiring. She didn't hear God's voice either apparently.Good Luck on your path. Thank you for sharing.

I found the full article from Time magazine referencing Mother Theresa's posthumous biography and struggle with faith:
http://www.time.com/time/magaz...
One minor correction on my part. Sorry about that. Apparently the article I read before was a partial reference and only referred to the "Dark night of the soul" experience which was extensive and painful in her case. The Time magazine article also lays out her calling to work in the slums which is described as an ecstatic experience which made her years of silence from Jesus all the more painful. 

The whole article is well worth reading. IMHO

Thank you very much for this, Mara.

I think it was Os Guinness who suggested a difference between doubt and unbelief. Unbelief posits that a conversation with God is not possible because of the belief that he's not there. Doubt, on the other hand, is the position of a struggling believer in conversation with God, arguing and wrestling in the belief that such a conversation is possible. The biblical model is the voice of the psalmist in many places.

When I wonder and struggle and shake my fist at God, this distinction and this biblical example proves helpful to me. And it seems to me it also captures Christ's struggle before and on the cross.